Sad demise of town centres...

What has happened to town centres? Not just Wigan but many more. I acknowledge that Wigan’s town centre now resembles something like a town bombed during WWII but we are assured that it is the right choice. Although we have to ‘wait and see’ - for the next couple of years or more there are some questions to be asked. Firstly, if units in the Galleries were empty prior to the Grand Arcade scheme and subsequently many more in the Galleries abandoned as a consequence, then I can’t imagine a mad rush to occupy units in the new town centre arrangements… unless the main stores from the Arcade and main streets move there… rendering the Arcade into another ghost town.
However, this is just a scenario and as a chap who has lived his whole life here I do have concerns and do hope for a favourable outcome, but with reservations.
Many towns have suffered but Altrincham employed a good consultant who turned the town around very favourably. My take on our national and international ‘progression’ is that progression in technology, etc may have favourable outcomes but does have a side effect, very often detrimental.
So, as that as a scenario I look at my childhood in Wigan – the 50s through to perhaps the eighties when the town was like a beehive; much activity and an incredible number of shops. There are even films from the turn of the century with steam trams and the centre occupied by vast crowds, all in their best Sunday dress! In the early 70s Woolworths was so packed that people struggled to enter; most department stores too were well attended. The shops were unbelievably numerous and actually radiated well out of the centre – up Scholes and down Wallgate, compared to today’s shops. I remember the old (now long demolished) arcade where it was stated that you could buy anything from the numerous tiny units and stalls. There was everything for everyone.
I guess the internet and online shopping has affected trade, also the retail parks just out of town with free parking. As for online shopping, there was always the popular option of mail order, often by major companies such as John England overlooking Mesnes Park and GUS at Martland/Marsh Green. Yes, it’s easy to say that the internet is to blame (and perhaps retail parks may just sway people away) but; I travel the county regularly and although I see the familiar boarded up stores and derelict buildings, there are many towns, villages and rather small cities that are prospering. I recently enjoyed visits to Poole, Southampton, Bournemouth, Winchester, Salisbury, Marlborough and many more which thrive and sensitively accommodate the high street stores into their historic architecture. Oh, I here you say – “yeah, in the bloody south!” – but no, I can mention lots of towns and cities in the northwest, Cheshire (Chester is an excellent example) Yorkshire, Derbyshire, North Wales, Cumbria, Northumberland , Scotland, etc… and I can tell you that there are many towns down south that have suffered and they need to look at the initiatives from the towns that have had favourable consultation/diagnosis are thriving. There is a resolution apparently if you look for it.
So, this is a foundation for discussion rather than a personal solution or opinion. I have merely given a rough, basic evaluation and I would love to hear your thoughts.

The fact that business overheads have increased to such an extent that many businesses are just not viable anymore, we all know about the online shopping and out of town shopping centres, but what about business rates, that was the first and then changes in business taxation, and more recently energy costs, a shopkeeper has got gas, electric and water bills to pay, and so there is part of the answer to the question of why is the high street in decline.

JR

The social grade make up of a place translates into disposable income which, in turn gives rise to footfall and spending power.
In the highest grade covering professional people the number of households in Wigan qualifying is 17%. In Altrincham it’s 53%.
Altrincham attracts professional people with families because of its grammar schools and others in close proximity.

Social Grade has six possible classifications (A, B, C1, C2, D and E). Census data uses a combined, four-way classification:

AB: Higher and intermediate managerial, administrative and professional occupations
C1: Supervisory, clerical, and junior managerial, administrative and professional occupations
C2: Skilled manual occupations
DE: Semi-skilled and unskilled manual occupations; unemployed and lowest grade occupations

Online shopping

Computers.

Alrincham market is doing very nicely. It is a robust and vibrant market.
The owners have obviously done their homework and taken everything into consideration regarding the requirements of their customers.
Wigan Council take note!

As for retail parks, on line shopping etc that is down to personal choice. If people don't support their local markets / town centre's, etc then it is inevitable that shops will close down.
The people of the towns have the the final say on which business's sink or swim.
Use them, or lose them.
No use in complaining when they have disappeared if you were not prepared to support them

Thank you all for your take on this present change in town centre change. Some very interesting and factual info which is greatly appreciated. As I mentioned, this is a debate/discussion and I hope for greater enlightenment from your offerings.
I do think it sad though that 30 yeears back and more favourably 100 years before, Wigan and many other town centres had great masses engaging in the retail attraction and social gathering with a much lower population than we have today. Yes times have changed but it is very sad that people now prefer to visit a retail park or buy on line. In addition as people have mentioned on here rent, rates, attraction by affluent locations, etc have a part to play. I do welcome your debate here as many will be unaware of the underlying issues. Thanks everyone.

So as Gaffer says, the folk in Altrincham, Cheshire are a damn site more wealthy than folk in Wigan are, Altrincham planners will plan for upmarket bars and restaurants, in Wigan our town is so piss poor, they should plan for soup kitchens instead

JR.
I always try to support local markets whenever possible.
Bolton used to be one of the best in the North West. Even they are feeling the pinch now with stalls disappearing. Maybe high rents, high business rates or even supermarket shopping as there are 2/3 high street supermarkets within a stones throw of Bolton market? Plus a bit further away you have the Middlebrook retail park.
I find Chorley one of the best small Lancashire towns for shopping. Nice mixture of traditional market stalls, decent selection of shops plus ample affordable parking.

Grotsville. Wn1 1 AA....

Posted by: Tommy Two Stroke (14800)
"So as Gaffer says, the folk in Altrincham, Cheshire are a damn site more wealthy than folk in Wigan are,"

Where do you get your lies from?
There are a lot of wealthy Wiganers!

29 of Wigan's 200 neighbourhoods fall within the 10 per cent most deprived neighbourhoods in England. This equates to in the region of 49,400 people, or around 16 per cent of Wigan's total population. Norley and Westleigh are ranked amongst the most deprived communities in Wigan.

Gaffer.
Tell us about the other 171 neighbourhoods.
ie,where are they?
And also, can you name all of the deprived neighbour hoods, and also the most "undeprived"?

if you have spent time in the USA you will find most towns shopping look like retail parks were you park your car grab what you need and drive off its not designed to browse.... Europe is a great example for how towns are set up with art on the street and parks trees greenery not just concrete and tin

billy connolly spoke about him growing up in Glasgow in the tenement housing and the community spirit that came with living there then in the 60s they knocked them down and he moved to Multi-storey flats and the community spirit was lost even though he had hot water..... when they built flats they did not think what people needed to live a balanced and fulfilling life it was just about a roof over the head .. getting back to shopping the last few year wigan new building has been built around what is good for the retailer/car not the shopper

What else do you expect with the building of retail parks with free parking, especially those so near to a town centre like in Wigan.

It is now only the smaller towns like Chorley who still have no retail park with free parking that buck the trend of declining town centres.

Even in the evening, a better pub night life as a result of having no clubs killing the pub trade like it has in Wigan.

p.s. The Christmas lights are even better as well!

The last time I was in Wigan town centre was in 2008. It was still quite busy, and all the shops were open and doing good business.

I now only read what has become of what was once a very interesting town, and look at any photos/videos that people post here, and I could cry.

As teenagers, my friends and I would meet up at Woolworth's on a Saturday or Sunday. We'd no money, but we loved to go window shopping. We'd go down the road from there looking in all the shops until we got to Pendlebury's and walk around the two circular glass display cabinets, then cross over to British Home Stores and back up, checking the shoe shops etc through the windows. Then we'd have a wander down Makinson's Arcade, and the little Old Arcade which had the Legs of Man running down from one end to the other.

Those were the days when the town centre had a heart and a soul, and now lost forever. but at least I have that fond memory.

Yes. I believe that online shopping is the main culprit but, as has already been said - use it or lose it.

Mollie I too have fond memories of the old town, my first job was in Sawbridges butchers in the Commercial yard 1968, the town was vibrant with shops, Picture places ( cinemas,) pubs, clubs ,newspaper sellers calling,
" Lancashire post" at the top of the arcade, More ' Corpy buses' than you could count, Jackson the Tailor, Timpsons shoes, Lowes, UCP , the bobby directing traffic at the top of Wallgate, he always stopped traffic to let me through as i cycled up on my butchers bike with the basket on the front, The tobacconists shop, King St, Library St all the town was buzzing.

"The tobacconists shop"

Would that be Ashton's, on Wallgate?

There was also a really good stationers ont tuther side ut street.

Indeed, Tom. I remember all those shops, and the bobby on point duty, but also, it's sad to see some of the wonderful architecture being left in disrepair, such as the original Police and Magistrates' Courts on King Street. That was a beautiful building, and left to rot. Probably gone altogether now.

I know we can't live in the past, but we can preserve where we can. If you walk through the town and down Library Street look up, instead of down, and see the gorgeous buildings that are still standing - for now.

I took a lot of photos of the town centre a while ago, and I still have them but, as I no longer use Photobucket, I'm unable to show them here.

The demise of Wigan town centre was not helped by not only internet shopping, but the building of a second arcade and a retail park with free parking within walking distance of the town centre for a town centre not big enough to sustain all three shopping facilities

A folly which has resulted in the first arcade being demolished afer only thirty seven years, a new folly with no shopping but apartments and all the character of the town centre disappearing over during the same period.

And the only people to blame are ourselves for having kept voting in the same people at each local council election responsible for the mess!

I had a walk around the top part of Wigan yesterday inclooding the Grand Arcade and it is crap, the new store is open in the old Debenhams shop, but I didn't go in, I don't think that folk have any reason to go into Wigan anymore shopping wise, because there is bugger all there now, the demolition of The Galleries has in my opinion persuaded other shops in the town centre to take their business elsewhere

Several years ago the late Brian Strett, deputy leader of the Council and later Chairman of the hospital trust, said that the shopping areas in Wigan and some the townships were too big and should be concentrated into smaller areas.

gaffer

He was right and perhaps his reference to townships being too big might mean a vailed reference to the Metropolitan Authorities created in 1974 as because of their size, things are today not being done like they used to be when there was just Borough and Urban District Councils.

Brian Strett was one of the better thinking Wigan Coucillors of the time!

Tom,was Billy and Jim still working at Sawbridges when you were there..I knew them when their shop was down Wallgate and used to go every weekend for my Mams leg o lamb, and also Irene's hubby Peter Roberts worked there..but am not sure when.

Wigan town centre is going up in smoke.

People forget that before the internet and online shopping, there was mail order and it was big business. Apart from the major catalogues such as John England, there were countless small mail order companies. The newspapers were full of mail order adverts!

Regarding Altrincham, that is where most of the overpaid foot ballers live it is bound to be better off than most of the Lancashire towns,

Posted by: ena malcup (3982) View ena malcup's page

"The tobacconists shop"

Would that be Ashton's, on Wallgate?

There was also a really good stationers ont tuther side ut street.

Ena:

Late reply, I know, but yes, that was Ashton's tobacconists, and the stationers across the road was Starr's. I used to buy my fountain pens there, the ones with ink cartridges and, at Christmas, we'd buy two packs of crepe paper, one red and one green, to make our own chain garlands to hang up.

There was also Wilding's, but I can't remember where they were.

Momac Yes all three still worked there, Peter was the delivery boy until I started he then went to the next level ,cutting meats and serving, Billy was the man who the Ladies liked, he'd put an extra bit on over the weight, Jim was the owner and not as generous , That was 1968 when I started,

Mollie,

Wilding's also on Wallgate, closer to Northwestern Railway Station. There was also Elizabeth Wilding (Photographic) but I cannot place her location now.

Remembered: it was Market Street.

In the early 1950's, many things were in short supply. We still had food rationing.

When my grandad retired, he went on a spree of globe trotting. Common enough now, but it was not in the early 1950's, when air travel, if available , was anything but cheap. He always knew what to sell and what to buy in the various places he went.

When he came to stay with us, he would have cameras and Carl Zeiss (Jena) lenses, which he usually took to Elizabeth Wilding to sell.

The last place for Wildings shop was on Standishgate, on the the right hand side of the Royal Arcade, a phone shop is there now.

I think I have read in post elsewhere on here that when Elizabeth Wilding moved from Market Street to Mesnes Street, (and also opened a string of shops across the North West) The name was truncated to 'Wilding' or 'Wilding's'.

I had left the district by this time, so do not know if Wildings Stationers were still trading. If so, there would have been two retailers in town centre, operating different business, both called Wilding(s).
I don't know if they were related/same family.

I had used Wildings a lot as they did things like bookbinding, and you could get materials such as adhesive 'Linsen Fabric'.

Never come across a better stationers in all the years since.

Confusion reigns.

I remember Elizabeth Wildings when it was in Market Street in the 1970s I used to buy films there for a Kodak Instamatic I had and it was run by a snidey tosser.

Early 1950's, hereabouts, if you wanted a serious camera, a Rolleiflex or a Hasselblad (ie pre the era of Japanese made stuff), Elizabeth Wilding was the 'go to' dealer.

I bought my camera stuff from the shop in Mesnes Street, and carried on buying from the Standishgate shop until it closed.

I was in Clitheroe at weekend. It has a population that is a mere fraction of Wigan's population; yet the town was buzzing and I only counted 2 empty shops. OK I admit that the castle might bring people in... but Wigan has Haigh Hall. Potentially it has the once famous pier that could be resurrected and also potential to eventually celebrate George Formby who has an international fan base. A Formby museum and conventions would surely be a productive initiative.
Going back to Clitheroe, the town has good food including a vegan cafe... plus a nice outdoor market with very nice toilets.
OK, they don't have the big high street stores but you can drive nearby to a retail park for that.

J R

And a complex in a old mill just off the town centre owned by the Bowland Brewery which includes shops, a wedding venue etc and a large beer hall with a rectangular bar.

A grand day out is Clitheroe!

Did matron take you all for a nice day out

Handsome..

Old Codger,
Yes, the old mill has been favourably converted and a great venue.
Clitheroe is one of many towns that has resisted redevelopment and preserved the historic architecture.

Or he could have been picketing

Clitheroe has a great jazz and blues festival.
I remember back in 73 a music festival in the Castle grounds. In traditional festival weather the rain poured. Great lineup including Stackridge, Quiver, Grenslade, Fumble, Longdancer, etc...
We took a short a break to a local pub to almost strip off and dry our clothes on chairs against a roaring coal fire. Although we were hippies we were made very welcome.

JR.
Hippies were / are some of the most nicest, politest, well mannered, non violent people I have ever had the pleasure to meet.

They were very open, intelligent and tolerent. Some could be a tad eccentric. Thats what made them a great bunch of people from eclectic backgrounds .

Give me an Hippy any day, over some of todays society

I am a Hippy

A Peace Pussy

Another topic spoiled by pathetic childish personal comments!

Another topic spoiled by pathetic childish personal comments!
I agree with you OC, the ones who post these sort of comments, are spoiling the site.

Thanks cheshirecat,
It is nice to hear that you were open and welcoming. Many of us suffered verbal abuse and even violence. I guess we were people who didn’t fit in with the expected lifestyle and dress style. Maybe people were frightened of the peaceful revolution. I could go into most pubs but was refused to be served in the Crawford Arms at Red Rock back in 74 because of my appearance. I was continually challenged on the length of my hair with reference to being ‘lousy’, dirty, full of nits (headlice). Nothing could be further from the truth as I washed my hair religiously every day! I was also called a ‘queer’, a ‘fairy’ or comments to effect that ‘something was wrong with me’.
Apart from the Indian and Chinese restaurants in Wigan which welcomed me with open arms, I was refused entrance into most of the ‘English’ restaurants. As for night clubs it was only the King of Clubs that accepted me.
I would like to think that those days are over, but I’m aware that Goths, Emos and the like still suffer from excessive discrimination. It’s rather sad.

It is sad JR, that one set of humans, regardless of race, colour, creed or religion, can hate and discriminate without any logical reasoning. I too was discriminated against when I was much younger because I was darker than most of the kids at school, I am white British but I had an ancestor 200+ years ago of a different race. I was a sensitive child and it really upset me back then.

We are, after all, made up of the same stuff but sadly, mankind will always find a way to find fault in others, yet hippies were well known to be peace loving people.

JR, those days will never be over, as there will always be something new for people to poke fun at. I don't understand it, but I accept that it exists.

JR

Did you wear jeans and trainers in the 1970s ?

Unlike the sixties, lads no longer go out in smart suits and polished shoes to attract the girls.

Now, the girls go out near naked to attract the lads!

In my day it was always the girls who dressed up to attract the lads.Young girls these days seem to go out to just have fun.

talking about Hippies doe's anyone know a guy called peter from Ashton long hair denim jacket always sat in the golden lion and jubilee and he liked a bet really nice guy... the last few times i have been back not seem him around??

The Hippy movement, which started in America in the 1960s, and spread to Britain, and it was looked on with disgust by the American and British 'establishment' the Hippies were considered as JR says, as lazy, drug addicted, work shy, nit ridden, dirty scruffy sods, and part of the 1960s counter culture movement, of the time, who were sick of wars LINK

I remember as a child in the 1960s and when I was a little older in the early 1970s, observing Hippy communities whilst on holidays in those times, one was in Cornwall in 1967, they were dancing around a campfire on the beach, and then bonking in the sand dunes

There loads of them in North Wales too, but as the 1970s wore on, the Hippies seemed to disappear, because they decided to stop taking drugs, smarten themselves up and get a job, but there were die hard's like JR who clung on to the Hippy culture, and I mean OK folk would take the pee out of them, but on the whole I think they were a well liked bunch, a Hippy would not doo yoo any harm, because he or she would be too stoned

As to their appearance, they wore jeans and trainers


In the 1970s wearing jeans and trainers would stop you getting into most nightclubs, but I knew of men in Wigan who had long hair, but I never knew of that stopping them getting into nightclubs in Wigan if they were dressed smart, and I myself had long hair in the 1970s and 80s and I wore jeans and trainers, and that was not because I was a Hippy, it was because I was a scruffy get, and JR is right, because when I was dressed like that, I could only get into the Kiing of Clubs, and that was in the early 1980s

TTS,
Good narration and observation there.
Yes, I always wore jeans but not trainers; I preferred pumps, bumpers and I had one pair of cowboy boots. Apart from jeans I also wore loons and crushed velvet flares. I had an Afghan jacket and also a brown suede coat with tassles (like Cheyanne Brody wore in the old Western series). I was wearing cheesecloth tops before cheesecloth shirts became fashionable. I bought these (and other items) from the Indian and Arabic shops and stalls in Manchester. Also, for work I got boots and combat jackets from Kayes army surplus store on Darlington Street. Unlike many hippies I didn't take drugs and wish that a solution could be found for the present problem we have. People talk of legalising it but in countries such as Holland for example, it has been disastrous. But I don't intend to initiate a debate here.
Before I was pursueded by the hippy dress sense I actually wore a suit (60s and then perhaps a few times in early 70). It was fashionable then and probably influenced by the Beatles and other bands.
Back in the 60s and 70s it was difficult for a guy to get a decent job or progress in a job with long hair. I was lucky in the fact that my boss was aware of how hard I worked and how I had a thirst for knowledge... subsequently I have had a favourable career and still working at 70 because I enjoy it!

JR

Well if you could afford to buy all that sort of gear, you must have had a decent job, but in those days the word 'unisex' was all the rage, unisex clothing, and you must have had the right shape to wear those types of clothes, thin legs, thin everything, and men who could wear clothes like that, would attract ridicule from men who dressed in the a more traditional sense, but they may have thought that you were a poof, but I bet you walked away with the women, who loved that sort of clothing on a man

TTS,
Thanks. Yes I was a skinny kid with a mop of hair. I was obsessed with a girl for 3 years who I thought was my perfect soul partner.but wouldn't give me a second glance. Eventually I asked her for a date and she became my wife. 49 years later we are still together!

Without going in to a very lengthy debate about the demise of a thriving town centre, I would just say that our society has changed and some of those wants and needs of past decades are no longer in great demand. Additionally, some can be easily obtained via other sources than from a shop or a market stall in the centre of a town.

The popularity of cars brought about changes in shopping as it became much easier to travel to a supermarket outside of the town centre and to buy much more as it was easier to transport your purchases. With this, supermarkets expanded their range of products and ventured in to offering customers: wines and spirits, beers, books, magazines, cards, medical products, clothing, electrical goods and more - and, many times, cheaper than a shop in the centre of town.

As cars loss that luxury status and became a regular means of transport for many families, out-of-town supermarkets became even more popular and it was not surprising that retail parks began to appear and to grow. After all, a car allows the shopper to travel in a relatively comfortable way and to be warm or cool while in the car. Also, to be dry when it is raining and to be assured that there is no need to wait for the means of transportation. Additionally, trying to carry heavy bags can be avoided.

Will something happen to completely change the 21st Century shopping habits and the lack of interest in the shopping centres of our towns?
Possibly, there is no simple answer as there is no one reason for the "sad demise of town centres".

All depends on what type of town you live in and the level of incomes and kind of people who live in and around the town to see which town centres are thriving while others are in the sad demise.

The reason why we in Wigan have to get into our cars and travel miles to other towns like Altrincham, Buxton, Clitheroe, Knutsford, Ormskirk, Skipton etc even nearby Chorley to enjoy the difference in town centre shops, markets and the many better leisure facilities of cafes, pubs and restaurants in those towns.

Leigh town centre, although currently run down awaiting refurbishment, has far more shops than Wigan and a decent market. Also the retail park is a 10 minute walk from Spinning Gate.

Angelwood

I agree, but if you talk to Leigh people, they still say that Wigan "gets all of the money" and Leigh is the poor relation of Wigan, all of which is utter 'Poppycock' !!!!

Leigh has just been awarded a grant to refurbish, whilst Wigan Council have just paid (wasted) £8 million quid to demolish The Galleries

Yes Angelwood,
Agreed. The Parsonage retail park is a short walk from the centre and some good shops in town... plus Tesco, Lidle and the cinema, etc also just a short walk away too. Not to mention the sports area...

Not forgetting Nandos if you fancy some chicken.

I can't even bear to go into Wigan now as it's such a depressing sight- it's dirty, empty and desolate. I know everything changes but compare the old black and white photos of past Wigan on the hoardings with the coloured fantasy pictures of future Wigan and you could be in any town, anywhere.

Even out of town garden centres have shops within their centre. Take Bents which has a pet shop grocers/butchers clothes shop toys cafe and a book section plus many more stalls selling items which have nothing to do with gardens. Not the cheapest of places but various items under one roof. Sainsburys have Argos Tu and Habitat in their stores

I had this idea about the future today. I won't pedantically repeat all the interesting and some rather valuable offerings. However, although we have been kind of favourably (contentious) drawn to the ease of online shopping I would offer this concern. Apart from people losing money and sometimes life savings due to the scums who pray on people, there is also the worry of AI (robotic messages etc). Since the introduction of AI my requests for work or to engage with other firms, contractors, etc has escalated by 200% plus and still becoming a daily chore to delete. I always go the 'unsubscribe' but these robot generated emails don't offer the facility.
I am reasonably optimistic that sometime in the near future people will distrust all online content due to continual scams that appear very genuine but simply take your money and disappear overnight.
Subsequently people will eventually choose to buy at a an actual real shop.
The only concern i have is that as more and more shops refuse cash there is still the opportunity for crooks to clone you card.
I do hope that cash will still be valid into the future and towns like Wigan having favourable results.

I know it sounds daft,but Wigan started to go downhill as soon as Woolworths shut and the same thing happened in st Helens. As mollie m said,woolworths wasn't just a shop but a meeting and wander place even if you didn't have any money.i remember saving up (what's that?) and buying jet black miners muck mascara and thinking I was sooo cool.wandering around wigan town centre with my friends was one of the highlights of my early life (did I have a life?) Happy happy days.i later dressed as a hippy as jr did,but i never really felt afraid,but i sometimes do now.
Just need to mention the civic centre being done up as an important brutalist building.i've always thought it was a brutally ugly building.sorry if this is a bit of a rant,but please Wigan council,think things through before you rip more of the heart out of Wigan.
Thank you

Magic Tree

I am of an age where I grew up with Woolworths in Wigan, and when it closed in 1984 I was shocked and I couldn't really take it in, I knew of there being no notice given for when it was to close, it just seemed to close immediately, I don't know what the truth was as regards it having a closure notice placed on it ?
But it just seemed so strange, because how could a busy store like that 'have to close' ?

So that was 1984 and this year come the summer it will be 40 years since Woolworths closed in Wigan, four decades and that is nearly half a century, and last year on one of the Facebook groups a young man chastised us old fogies by saying in a debate, which involved the closure of Woolworths in Wigan, and he said something along the lines of "jeeze how can you people still be going on about a shop closing nearly 40 years ago" and as much as he was being a sneery young pain in the backside about it, I think he was right, so for heavens sake it is going to be 40 years since Woolworths closed, so let it go ......

No! If people want to reminisce about people or places, let them be. Our memories are our only means of time travel, and it's healthy to recall things from our past to keep our brains from turning into sludge.

Those young pains in the backside that you speak of will, one day, have their own memories to annoy their old fogies with.

Magic tree Wigan didn't start going downhill because Woolworths shut it was because of Thatcher war against the industrial towns of the north

There are always two sides to a story. Smokers or non smokers.Galleries v Grand arcade. Wigan town centre v retail parks or even supermarkets. Wigan has had SIX cinemas now there are none.Public transport v the car. Which side are people on to argue their case for good or bad over the years. We all have memory's and what we know today is history tomorrow. Some people say one thing and others disagree who is right and what is wrong

No idea what your saying there Peter ,the Tories absolutely destroyed the industrial towns of the North anybody who thinks different is crackers

This is what they have painted on the Mesnes Street side of the Market Hall.



Int it nice

That'll bring the customers in

Apparently it is Muriel's, whoever she is

People have different life experience, and come to different conclusions concerning what is desirable.

One of the least attractive features of Wiganworld is its Stalin-like intolerance: if you do not toe the party line, you are fair game for any sort of underhand sniping.

Many members do respect that we differ when it comes to our opinions, and that we can differ and pursue quite healthy arguments. It is not unusual to learn from those who have taken a view which differs from yours.

Sadly, there are those who, having failed to browbeat you into endorsing their world view, lapse into personal attacks to undermine your integrity.

It stinks!

Unfortunately, if you look at the thread count, it seems that fight club is what members are mostly viewing.

I have taken the line that it is dishonourable to run from the fight: if you strike at me, I should strike back. However, I am old: I do not wish to spend any of my remaining time on this earth engaged in ongoing online feuds.

IN SHORT

IT WILL BE A LONG TIME BEFORE I POST ON WW AGAIN!

Take care Ena, you will be missed.

Ena

I will be the first person to admit that this place is a 'rough pub' there are a lot of fights, but at least you can be yourself, but so can other people, and it comes down to what you want, and unfortunately for some of us 'age' is catching up with us, and the Wigan World Tavern is for the younger generation, the younger generation of shithouses, taking over from our generation of shithouses.

And I hope we have taught these young uns how to shithouse properly, we have imparted the skills of 'shithouseness' we have shown them how to be a GIT!

And that is part of being British, if World War Three happens, and it is reckoned that it will happen in the next ten years, and then our younger generation of shithouses, will do our nation proud, just like in WW2, and we will kick the living poo out of those Ruskies

God save the King.

So Ena, I may not be far behind you in retiring from this maelstrom, of anti-social forum behaviour, however much fun it has been in the last 20yrs or so, but sometimes it is right to 'move on' move on to pastures new, move on to the Masters of Forum Life, the same way the grandees of Tennis and Golf move on into the Masters competitions of Tennis and Golf.

So Ena.

I have found a place where 'shithousing' is not allowed, you have to wear smart casual wear, and conduct yourself with 'aplomb' at all times, and I give this information with all the due respect that Brian and Ron of Wigan World deserve, after all they have built and doo have a very busy pub here, but some of us seniors, have got to hand over the mantle of 'shithousing' to the next generation.

So Ena, I now find solace, and contentment on Wigan Peers, but out of respect to Brian and Ron, I am not posting a link to the place, because I hate that sort of thing, I hate traitors, so if you are interested Ena, you will have to find it yourself

Hi all who wish to leave.
I do appreciate your concerns but we shouldn't bow down to the undesirables. I try to ignore the unfavourable comments that might sometimes be aimed at me. I think constant ignore sometimes get a message across... but I do acknowledge your reasons. It is rather sad that some people here wish to leave and and I wish you could stay - i will miss you all.

Sorry if remembering old times in Wigan is offensive,but other places in Wigan have been closed down and/or demolished for no apparent gain.Other towns seem to embrace their history,all we seem to have left is photos and sneering comments about modernity.Why can't we have both? If we follow the argument to its conclusion,everything before the year 2000 (or is that ancient history?) should be bulldozed and buried.Is this what we want? Think about it.

I agree Magic Tree.
There are many examples of towns throughout the country preserving their important history whilst subtly incorporating modern shops and buildings. Also, in January I was down south and drove through the country through quite a few towns. Some of these had retained most of their historic buildings and sympathetically intergraded the usual high street stores. I was impressed. Any town can do it with a bit of thought.

In the news today, Bolton Council are demolishing Crompton Place. It must be catching.

Crompton Place, was originally the Bolton Arndale Centre and I worked in a shop around the corner from it

And before that, a Tetley pub called 'The Saddle' which was one of the best pubs in Bolton town centre.